Interview with Yvonne Meissner
19th March 2002 in El Once
PL:We first met when you came
to London in September of 1998 when you came here to teach with Pocho
Pizzaro, in fact we interviewed him for El Once. (Issue ***).
Was this your first tour abroad ?
YM:No, it wasn’t
PL:Who did you tour with first?
YM:I actually didn’t tour
with others first of all… I just taught regular classes and then,
slowly, it evolved into teaching weekends abroad… first in Belgium and
Germany, so near my home base Amsterdam. But I mostly toured alone and
sometimes with others like a partner from Holland, who had started the
social form of tango with me in #1996 and danced it nicely by then. I
introduced in Germany and Italy. We danced salon style with rhythmical
elements of Canyengue Orillero that I ‘d learnt from Pocho Pizarro. And
in #1997 we were invited to Brussels next to Gabriel Angio and Natalia
Games who then weren’t quite known yet ….
PL:Who was the first Argentine
dancer that you toured with… was that Pocho ?
YM:I actually first taught with
Susana Miller when I organized her lessons in Z”urich. For 3 years I
organised for Ruben Terbalca, whose lessons “social psychological
history of tango” I organized. Ocassionally we were asked to teach
Canyengue, so I did this with him. In that time - 1994-1997 – Canyengue
was a secret hit. I once taught with Daniel Trenner and another young
Argentinian in the Sitges Festival #1998. But my real first tours of
several months were with Pocho though by then I had already taught alone
in many countries in Europe…
PL:In Europe… when you were
in your school in Amsterdam?
YM:Yes, we had a small school
in Amsterdam, started tango in Den Bosch 1994 and taught in Haarlem for a
while. We only taught the close style, already from the beginnings in
1994…
PL:Susana Miller didn’t teach
you canyengue… ?
YM:No…, that’s Pocho’s
part… I learnt Canyengue from Pocho. He can be a great dancer. When
no-one knew asked for Canyengue in Buenos Aires, he already did
exhibitions with Stella Barba, who was a great partner for him … I was
drawn to it because it’s so…wild, so uncontrolled and entirely in the
rhythmical tradition serving the music…. a very different expression of
a historic form of tango. I needed to learn that. So I took lessons with
him and sought him out for that.
PL:Where did you meet him
first?
YM:I met him in Europe when he
was on an earlier tour, and I heard that he was quite an interesting guy
so I went to see him in a tango school… it was before I danced “Tango
de Salón apilado”. I took lessons there, elsewhere in Europe and later
in Buenos Aires…. so I flew after him…
PL:A bit like Michiko and me ..
travelling around Europe to the places where the teachers were.
Did you plan to become one of
the “tango touring teachers” or did it just happen naturally ? Did you decide at some point that you wanted to start touring
and teaching internationally ?
YM:It happened naturally like
as to many of my friends who are travelling now.
I had been involved with tango (touring), especially after 1996.
When I was on a trip, I just went dancing in that city.
I have a lot of friendship in Europe, and all of those people were
the early generation of dancers. I actually ended up being asked later on.
I didn’t really make a conscious decision… the only decision I
made, was to drop my regular lessons, because the teaching abroad became
more. It then weren’t possible anymore to travel further then only to Düsseldorf
or Brussels and still continue with the regular lessons. I admire Eric, a
friend who is able to combine travelling with regular lessons but would go
crazy because of overkill of impressions…
PL:When you started in Tango,
who did you learn from and how do you think your way of dancing has
changed now?
YM: My first tango course was
1987 with Wouter Bravé and Martine Berghuis.
They were the first people - next to Mirta and Lalo - in Holland…
Seemingly studying the newer tango history, together with Lange in Berlin
they were – to my knowledge - actually the first in Europe.
I ended up taking something like a fun workshop somewhere and
continued with a weekend workshop, still in 1987 … if I remember well,
there were only four or five couples, you know… it was an
“underground” activity… no-one knew what it was.
We felt like outcasts in that to-be-torn-down building. Later on,
when I was able to pay for regular lessons… I was a student… I took
regular lessons with Rob & Inez. In that time there was nothing like a
regular event. Still I remember the moment someone made a paper with some
4 milongas to come up in the next 3 months and quite a bit of time between
them. It was then I started
to go dancing intensively and getting quite hooked. In 1989 we had several
regular events a week.
PL:The style of dancing you
started with was presumably figure orientated, like we all did at that
time. When and how did you change to the way you dance now?
YM:Through Susana (Miller) and
Cacho Dante. They were, by good luck, the first people that I was able to
help organise and learn from extensively…. I was around doing the public
relations, organizing the space and printing or layouting a flyer. I
consider it a present what I learnt those 3 years while we organized them
sometimes twice a year. My nowadays didactics are very much based on
Susana’s that are basicly body technique related. It was a great period
that changed in my life.
PL:Were they the first people
that you invited to Holland?
YM:I worked with a good friend
of Susana and he new both very well from Buenos Aires, and as we had small
schools together I really wanted them to feel home. My partner was
actually the initiator but he didn’t have a computer so I did the flyers
and PR. We tried to show people what Susana and Cacho were teaching and
gradually I got involved more in this minimalist and introvert way to
tango. It was a hard thing in 1994 to explain people, that were very much
still in a figure and counting orientated tango using up lots of space,
all related to the basic step with the back step.
We wanted to show them a very different side that is starting from
the music, a common space and couple as a definition. The women converted
the situation, they all died to dance with Cacho. I first wasn’t hooked
as much as it sounds, but this was a subtle power intruding my life. And
now still it’s my preferred way to dance the social dance forms.
PL:Susana called their way of
dancing “milonguero” style, which is now how many people refer to
it…. What would you say it was called?
YM:I wouldn’t really use the
term “Milonguero” style myself. Susana Miller used it after 1987 as an
abbreviation. She had gained the confidence of the milongueros, so first
Cacho Dante and then Eduardo Aguirre started to work with her in Almagro.
So she invented the term as an abbreviation for the close form of social
dancing in the center of Buenos Aires. And there are 3 types of holds, two
are close, thus apilado, and one is open. The open one was danced in
“barrios” further out like Saavedra (Salón S’in Rumbo) and the
close way in the center where we tourists all got first. And that is why
we know the social close form first though it’s not the only one. The
same milonguero could – all in the close hold - dance small like usual
in the centre with half a squaremeter of space for the couple and later in
the night do a more complicated form, when there was more space, Teté and
Eduardo are examples for this, next to many others less known. It’s the
same people. As milonguero was a pejorative word with a meaning like more
or less “the guy that dances all night long, doesn’t like to work,
leaves his wife and children at home and is on the hunt for other women”
it weren’t something a milonguero would want to call himself, neither
the ones that didn’t fit the description nor the ones that did. Please
take this with a smile. I give you the worst definition of all. Cacho and
Eduardo luckily are amongst the huge amount of not-typicals as Cacho has
an own company and Eduardo worked in Teatro Col’on for 20 years and both
leave women in peace. Just to explain that only a non-milonguero, in this
case an intellectual like Susana could invent this term. Slowly people
inclusive milongueros - that now could meet tango tourists in the center
of Buenos Air - used the term because of the advantage of a compact term
that defines the close dancing of Tango de Salón that tourists saw
because they came to the center and normally not to the Provincia de
Buenos Aires like Avellaneda or Lanuz, or the barrio Saavedra. Even in
1995 milongueros like Teté declared – when asked about the style – to
be dancing “Tango de Salón”. I still remember that night we sat with
a big crowd on Plaza Dorrego with tango dancers from Europe confused about
the different holds and terms when Teté made things clear. A memorable
and almost historic moment for me was when when Cacho made his new
business card in 1997. I had lost his phone number and so he gave me his
new, fresh business card saying “Cacho Dante, tango milonguero style”.
When I saw it, I started laughing and we laughed together for about 10
minutes. We both knew, right now and here, times had changed. Important is
that milongueros go and dance for the music first, that separates them
from dancers of Tango Fantas’ia or Tango Danza.
PL:That is the prime motive for
getting up to dance, isn’t it ?
YM:Of course… when I went first I ended up in the centre of Buenos Aires
where in the early nineties they had only the close hold, so I saw
“Tango de Salón - Apilado”. What stroke me then - my first night was
in the Almagro that still had no young dancers yet - that all of those
people danced in such a small space and didn’t touch, each of them
staying behind their partner. The whole mass moved to the music with the
same kind of accelerations like a school of fish that waves here and
there, maintaining the same distance. It were as if they respected the air
in between each of the couples. I was struck and wondered how they not
only could maintain the direction of dance but the quickness of this. The
term “ronda” contains direction and its quickness for any milonguero.
I repeat again, it has nothing to do with the hold. All forms of “Tango
de Salón” respect this sculpture of music in space, and not only the
close “Apilado” way… nowadays it depends on the schools, to what
extent people will learn this music in space sculpture.
PL:Do you have a name you use
for more figure orientated dance?
YM: Again I can only explain
paying respect to the milongueros whom I learnt from. They call the way I
was taught by my first teachers (styleAntonio Todaro) “Tango Fantas’ia”.
Fantas’ia is a situational way of dancing. The same milongueros that
dance on half a squaremeter can occasionally be asked to dance in an
exhibition. This will always be one on the same floor as the public, not
on stage (some milongueros though did in addition, like Eduardo &
Gloria) and for a certain occasion. Normally this milonguero would know
his public in addition. The two dancers might then be allowed to lift
their feet (forbidden in a traditional salon) and perform things like
ganchos that influence the flow of the ronda in a salon. Still their dance
would serve the music. And only the music. I had the honour to perform
with several milongueros in a spontaneous way, being asked without knowing
it would happen and it was a matter of honour for them to leave the choice
of music to the DJ. Because with this they show they unprepared can dance
any music (in this way Pocho is still a milonguero). This is the historic
definition. Nowadays Tango Fantas’ia is called everything that happens
on stage, including lifting the leg above the head. The last normally only
a trained modern or ballet dancer can perform. That had been called
Tango Danza before. Now this term by young people is scarcely used. Anyway
a milonguero would never ever think of doing this when he would disturb
the ronda in a salon. He would forever loose the respect of the others and
that’s the last thing they want to loose...
So Fantasia is situational, but
became the main stream thing to be taught through stage dancers and the
request of the public. Every beginner wants to learn flashy things. A
teacher has to show them how cheap it looks if not done well, to convert
them forever into good dancers who with modesty only after being trained
in Salon – like all dancers did who work with the only performance group
that is respected in Buenos Aires: Miguel Zotto’s group - will want to
develop Tango Fantasia or Tango Danza … J
Fantasia dancers shouldn’t look cheap.*
PL:So really by saying “Tango
de Salón” you are encompassing all the styles of Tango which you
would do in a social
context…
YM:Yes, not me but the
milongueros I refer to with my definition. It’s their definition. It
comprises what Eduardo Arquimbau calls “Club Tango”, “Club style”,
“Milonguero”, the usual form early fourties of “Tango Liso” with
no figuring at all; It though excludes historic forms of Canyengue and
Canyengue Orillero which only since the interest of the tourist popped up
in the salons of Buenos Aires. There is a little bit of confusion in the
United States, but as you go and ask the big crowd of historic salon
dancers down there (Buenos Aires), they all say they are dancing “Tango
de Salón”. Like I mentioned above, in 1995, Teté said he is dancing
“Tango de Salón”, 1994 Cacho said the same. Not to speak about many
others whom I interviewd and spoke for long nights with medialunas and
coffee. My students say they dance Milonguero and on flyers where I teach
there is Milonguero Style. So, we are in the middle of an evolution of
definitions. That is why I empasize the origin and the umbrella definition
of Tango de Salon that still is on…You can say, Tango de Salon is
everything with the feet on the ground that was danced from the Fourties.
PL:It gets a bit confusing
nowadays because everyone is putting a different name to anything and
everything, so it’s nice to get a clear definition.
YM:I have been witnessing this,
especially in the United States where “Tango de Salón” actually
comprises what we in Europe or them in Buenos Aires would call “Tango
Fantasia”. In Europe it’s
quite clear in most countries and cities that I have been to that “Tango
de Salón” is social tango, and the difference is understood between
that and what “Tango Fantasia” or “Espectaculo” is .
In the United States there are many teachers being invited because
of the credits of having worked in a stage company and those
dancers oftenly weren’t even known in the milonga in Buenos Aires, not
to speak they were invited by a milonguero. (I emphasize this applies not
to all companies but there are.) So, as cities are far apart from each
other and travelling – thus cross-fertilizing each other – is less
easy then in Europe, organizers would choose to invite these dancers to
teach in their cities. So people expected my milonguero partner and me to
do lots of ganchos, jumps and lifts of feet when we came. It was funny.
But we are still friends with these organizers!!!….
PL:With so many teachers
around, teaching with different styles, do you think that sometimes
people, the students, start to dance a tango in the style of “Tango de
Salón” and then half-way through change into “Tango Fantasia”…
and then back to Salón again ?
YM:You speak about the students
in Europe and the United States ?
PL:Yes..
YM:Hmm… I have been seeing
some students of mine that were almost trained only in Salon… to start
with, they never did the eight-count basic step, in the end of a
scholastic year which runs half a year in Holland, I told them... look
this is what you can do and its called basic step, but they were very
musical and had invented it already without the back step of course. And
some of these students can end up doing “Tango Nuevo”. There is
nothing wrong with such a development. As long as the teacher gives them
the right improvization skills, so these figures never get sclerotic.
“Tango Nuevo” has quite a high level of improvisation; and
improvisation is the common denominator of “Tango Nuevo” and “Tango
de Salón” open or close or what Susana was calling “Milonguero”
style as an abbreviation. I
have seen this development a lot, most of my students get though bored
with choreographies or figures they cannot use. Then I mostly feel very
proud of them. People are free to choose. And when I dance with some
dancer of “Tango Nuevo” we might for the fun end up using Orillero
elements in the dance. We are free to choose. The only important question
is, does this built the music, does the dance shape the music. As long as
one can see the music in a three dimensional shape I am totally happy.
PL:If you are a beginner, it
can be very confusing when you are being taught different styles one week
after another.. you can end up taking a bit of one style from one teacher,
a bit from another and it all gets mixed up into something
different…maybe..
YM:Yes, I think that would be a
very unhappy way to start with tango..
PL:It does tend to happen these
days, though, doesn’t it ?
YM:In some cities, or some
countries, they have a very strong tradition of starting with half-year
courses which you pay in advance for, and I think it is a very safe thing
because you can get quite confused as a beginner when different teachers
are telling you to put your
hand this way and that way, and all very basic things… I have seen
people really destroyed by this confusion of having too many teachers in
their very beginning, whilst later on, when they are more experienced they
are more water-proof; they are able to select.
If I can give advice I would advise that people start with the same
teacher and think seriously who that should be.
PL:It seems to me that anybody
who is starting a tango scene has a great responsibility to guide their
students one way or another…to invite teachers who have a good
reputation in a particular style that they like,
and perhaps for some time considerable time
maintain that teacher’s particular style and then gradually
expose the experienced students to someone else who dances in a different
way.
YM:Yes, you are absolutely
right. I think it is wise,. but one must choose a good teacher first… if
the didactics are clear and you see a quick result in the students, you
have a good teacher. If the
student’s are not able to dance with others then their regular partner
after one month, you have not the right teacher, it might be a teacher
that teaches a couple to compensate for the other’s lack of knowledge
which - I always say - is the lack of knowledge not of the poor beginners
but the teacher himself. If the teacher can’t teach all kinds of
learning processes, he misses something he is not allowed to put on the
students. It’s his defect. The style doesn’t matter to make someone a
good teacher.
PL:So you have to be able to
dance not just with your own partner but with everyone else in the dance
school and on the dancefloor as well.
If you go to a tango community
and you find that everyone is dancing show tango, what is the first thing
that you tell them?
YM:Oh, actually, I am not
telling so much… first of all…it depends if they do it well and with
the music. Then it’s ok with me, as long as they have a good insurance
for the ladies that might be kicked. In case a community is open to learn
which will be the case when your get there as an invited teacher, you
could work on their navigation skills and axis, the use of torso to change
directions and music interpretation. Those themes might a ready-to-learn
dancer of Fantasia bring to reflection on their skills and its limits.
Too, I might use a technique that I learned from my teacher Pocho. We went
into a school and saw that people felt themselves really very advanced.
They had an arrogant attitude. And that will always be in the way of
learning. He said, ok, wait and see what I do: … and he did something terribly complicated. Then the
students went on trying and copying it but it didn’t work. So, Pocho
said, then, I see, we have to work on the basics. Everybody agreed. And we
went on teaching axis and torsion.… he was really making fun of them,
actually…
PL:Complicated in the way of
figures and steps…?
YM:He gave them an overdose of
what they thaught they had. It is a great principle. Could be figures…
anything very complicated… even one sole movement can be complicated if
it involves a torsion and a language of different parts of the body in one
go… so you would try to catch their attention on this and maybe then you
can start to work. These are techniques that do apply to all kind of
teaching, they are social, didactical group techniques. I personally try
to only teach sole movements (involving many parts of the body) through
different kind of body techniques… you know, people would actually call
me for that… so I would
only teach movements. But
when ending up in a city and being welcomed by them without them knowing
what I am normally doing, I
try to convince them to really see the elegance of precision of lead and
follow or the connection and evolution of all parts of the body… to make
the whole movement work. That is the work that I do, even professionals
come to me for this. People
organize me for this, .
If people have brought me
without knowing my way of teaching… the body technique and posture
related things that are involved for social tango settings… then I would
try to turn it around and show them the inside of tango, the quality part
of tango, the connection part or what makes us so extatic about tango. I
would show them that what feels right, looks elegant.
PL:That is a good way of
showing people that they cannot do something complicated if they don’t
have a sound grounding and knowledge of the basics.
YM:Why it mostly works so well
is that with these small things you can make the dance feel so much
better… and that’s what we do it for. I feedback on both leaders and
followers, men and women… about how it feels, and then, immediately they
say.. yes, wow now I feel the difference. Normally you see them start
smiling when the inside of their tango got right. The confirmation of
positive experience trick I use is borrowed from didactic studies. But the
feel-good is the most common reason for people to start tango, it’s
their leisure time hobby. If they do not have fun, with themselves and
their partner or the social setting … why should they spend their free
time? If it doesn’t feel good, there is no reason to learn that
particular thing. Especially the men or leaders get bored or mostly
frustrated, convinced they will never learn it. But it might be the
teacher….
PL:In most non-latin cultures,
and particularly with the older generation, people find it difficult to
get too close to a stranger… let alone having any sort of body
contact… how do you overcome this when you teach… do you find this
difficult ?
YM:This is a very good
question. Of course there are
countries that have less or more problems with contact.
There are certain non-latin countries that do not have too much of
a problem with touching each other, or getting near. How I would work on
this normally is depending how I am teaching there.
When I am teaching there for only one time in a year I leave them
as they are, maybe far apart, so they feel comfortable.
So, I would work on the rhythm, I would work on the space, I would
focus on using torsion and torso to lead first of all. That opens already
a contact with your couple. A safe contact.
I would not force them into getting closer. Except my workshop is
labelled like this with apilado or close hold. When we taught regular
classes in 1994 we were the only people in Holland only teaching the close
hold with no other forms next to it. That is ok when you have your own
group of students. But if you travel you cannot say I only teach the close
style. No, sure you can. But I decided the people must be ready through
their local teachers or own decisions to start with sharing their chest.
Forcing is the last I want. I work with opening people and having them
want it themselves. Yes, I motivate people. Tango is an embrace and if you
cannot give it, it is because of a certain reason but you can gradually
evolve into it. The English language already says, you have to embrace a
certain decision. It’s a development. People want to feel the other but
are scared death to loose control. Then it’s important if I will return
twice or more a year to that particular city. Then I start my own hidden
program, motivating trying because it’s their way to be able to dance in
an authentic salon in Buenos Aires, or to come and dance in Holland!!!!
PL:Close hold, in all it’s
forms, is the nicest way of dancing tango anyway, isn’t it….
YM:Personally, I prefer the
close hold… but it depends on what kind of partner; it needs to feel
well to be enjoyable. In some cases it can depend on the music, but I
enjoy Pugliese of the ‘70’s too with the close hold and the open
hold… it really depends on how clear one leads with the chest and how
the energy is. Personally, I have no difficulty in coming near to someone
I do not know.
PL:When you become more
experienced you begin to understand that it’s the nicest way to dance
providing the circumstances are right… that there is also no hidden
agenda anywhere… it is just to enjoy the dance together.
YM:Yes, you have so much more
information when you dance the close hold… you have three points
of reference otherwise you have only two points for reference in
the leading and in addition it is a very intimate moment that you can
dance with a stranger…. like a communication between two bodies without
a problem of language. After the first dance with someone I oftenly think
I know that person after that dance. Who travels for work or fun, it’s a
great opportunity to discover the power of body language without speaking
f.i. a word of French. The communication is pure and less betraying then
words. In my first week in Buenos Aires I had a shocking experience with
this. A milonguero knew exactly when I was distracted, though my body
continued dancing correctly and with rhythm. But my mind wasn’t. I had
given a sign to another dancer who wanted to dance with me afterwards. I
was totally astonished. By then I still wasn’t able to do it myself. Now
– with 1 ½ decades of experience I am a starting beginner but can tell
when my students are thinking while dancing or not stay with my with their
energy. That evening I thought they are using some kind of black magic.
Now I know, it’s pure experience.
PL:What music do you use in
your classes?
YM:That depends on the
classes… I sometimes teach very rhythmical classes, like double timing
or double slow or pauses or milonga, so I would of course adapt…
but if I choose to have a normal start-up class for intermediates I
would use Di Sarli, then maybe later on I would use something else like,
if they couldn’t catch the big beat of the rhythm, not even the double,
I would put on D’Arienzo. But
for the slow movement, you know Di Sarli is like a heartbeat, it is very
slow… but D’Arienzo has a lot of double and triple timing and
syncopation. But I would
adapt to the group… I have them dance first and then I would choose the
music, in case I don’t have a theme in a workshop.
PL:In your travels around the
world, do you find that more non-traditional tango music is being used in
milongas?
YM:Oh yes… I have seen
that….I live very close to one of the centres that has started
playing very odd music, like Greek music that is non-tango music…
PL:Is that in Amsterdam…
YM:That’s Nijmegen… El
Corte in Nijmegen. They can
have very odd music…
PL:It seems to be the fashion
these days…
YM:It is becoming kind of a
fashion, yes… Mostly with
whom I bring or go dancing with I wouldn’t so much be feeling at my
ease… I would have to wait a lot for the right music… so we can pass a
long time until it comes… with a milonguero at your side you might wait
one hour for the right song to come which we did. But normally there is
lots of very danceable music played too. In the late evening they would
experiment with other kinds of music.
In Holland, in Amsterdam, you can say there’s mostly very good
DJ’s. Too in some cities in the US. It is a quality proof that dancers
choose the DJ’s and not the luxury of a milonga setting. We have dancers
like this in Holland but too in some city in Italy. Some of our DJ’s are
very requested in all of Europe and travel quite a bit.
PL:They are using different
music as well, are they?
YM:No,
they play traditional tangos.
In Amsterdam we have quite good music, to my definition… you
know, you asked my opinion, first of all there is one DJ who has been
doing it for quite some time, he really plays music like, you know, in
Argentina. Then we have some ex students of mine, or friends that are
playing music that have quite a authentic approach that is just based on
the rhythmical aspect of music. If
you have late Pugliese or too much pauses, you can create troubles in the
“ronda” – the “ronda” is the dance quickness and the dance
direction, it is not only the dance direction but it’s also how quickly
the whole crowd moves on the dancefloor, and if you are putting too much
“paused” music, some of the dancers maybe pause a long time… and you
cause a traffic jam, so, like in Argentina there must be a proper use of
the common space. And our milonga’s come close to the crowdedness of
Canning on Sunday.
PL:So a DJ is incredibly
important … something a lot of people do not realise, perhaps ?
YM:Yes… maybe it’s not
realised so much in certain parts of Europe… in many countries they can
play whatever music they like and the dancers don’t get the rhythm at
all… it depends on the place and local teachers.
PL:It is interesting actually
because if you take any other music form, DJ’s are considered to be very
important and they get paid lots of money for DJ-ing an evening, whereas
with tango it is quite common for there not to be a DJ – someone just
goes and puts a CD on the turntable and it’s left to play.
It seems to take a long time for people to realise how important a
DJ is… that they can create the atmosphere in the milonga.
YM:Luckily I have to say that
in quite a few of the cities that I have been able to teach in, including
Amsterdam, my home city, this
you can’t do at all… no one would come… and many other places in
Holland and other cities like Portland or San Francisco… they are very
sensitive to music. You don’t get the good dancers if there are not the good
DJ’s. So, like in Buenos
Aires, if you don’t have the good dancers in your milonga, you can close
tomorrow… that’s why they get the free entrance..J…
but they have to give the goods too, so that’s how it works nowadays too
in already in quite a few cities. Even in the South of France they are
quite sensitive to music, and a few places in Italy… but only some that
are more developed in their definitions.
PL:I think in London in certain
places too the dancers are becoming more sensitive to the music… at one
time you could just play anything and the people would dance around… now
they are more selective and knowledgeable.
YM:I have to say, in London you
have some quite nice music going on, at least in the milongas I visit or I
am brought to in an evening when I teach here.
Only what we would really be missing in Holland and those cities
that I was actually talking about, San Francisco, Portland and the South
of France… we would miss the tandas… which is: 3-4 tangos of one
orchestra of the same period played in a row of 3-4, followed by 3
milongas of the same orchestra, then one or two tandas of tango of one
orchestra, then 3-4 valses of one orchestra and again some tanda of
tango’s, clearly leading to the milonga or vals sets (or other latin or
swing rhythms – Ed). We wouldn’t have one tango of this kind and a
contradictory one after it. In Buenos Aires I choose my dancers according
to the music. Predictibly – at least in still traditional salons – one
will know it’s a vals and then I sure will look for only a certain kind
of dancer with the most suiting music interpretation. There are very nice
choices here in London, but the energy can’t continue and I feel forced
oftenly to dance with one dancer to a music I never had chosen with him.
So if you have not at least two or three of the same music, it feels like
a waking up with a cold shower…
PL:I thought nearly everyone
played tandas now in London… we
do in our milonga… and most of the DJ’s seem to in the other milongas
we get to go to when we have time… is this not so generally?
YM:No,
not everybody… but you can take London out, it’s not so
important.
PL:It’s interesting to hear
that they don’t, because I thought that they were beginning to…
YM:It happens in many cities…
PL:I think that playing several
consecutive tangos of one orchestra helps you to get a feel for the music
of that orchestra. What we
also do in our milonga, or when we are DJ-ing somewhere else, or even in
our classes, before playing a tanda we announce the name of the orchestra.
Is this common elsewhere ?
YM:That is a great idea. I
would sometimes do this in my lessons… I think it is a good start to
make people aware that there are different styles in the orchestras, and I
think that you cannot be educating a community in tango when you are not
educating them with the music… they will not grow… they might end up
by chance dancing to the
right beat; but the beat is not dancing the music at all… yet.
So, to be dancing the music you have to feel the Calo, the Calo
with Beron, (Orchestra of Miguel Caro with singer Raul Beron - Ed) you
have to feel so many different colours or atmospheres that you would use
to slow down to or speed up to, or do more round things or more staccato.
There cannot be any growth without getting educated in the music.
PL:It is a saying that there
are over 4,000 recorded
tangos, but you can only dance to 400… do you think that now people
dance to 500…
YM:I think actually… well, we
have a collector in Holland and he has a huge tango collection… he
started out recording some just for lovers of the music… who were crazy
about danceable music, so I have actually, I think,
a huge collection, when I include the late 10’s and 20’s which
you would not use really all the time for dancing… but actually there
would be a lot more than 500 tangos to be danced, if I remember the weight
in kilos it must be .. I have almost all his CDs… I think I miss out
maybe 20… and he only does danceable music… even very unknown music.
My milonguero dance partner discovered new music through this guy and he
is very picky but open to making danceable tanda’s that can be unusual
for a traditional milonga in Buenos Aires. I always support his music
where ever I teach.
PL:Who is this… ?
YM:Remi (Remi Kooij – see
listings “Where to Buy” – Netherlands)… he started up with a 78rpm
collector mind and he still has a 78rpm collector mind, but we wanted his
music as teachers and DJ’s, and we needed it… so he started up making
the CD’s and happily I have his music.
But there is a lot of danceable music out there that is really
unknown like Di Sarli of 1929. In Buenos Aires I had some music CDs with
me and some milongueros jumped on these versions when they heared them.
Remi though does the same when he is annually there….
PL:Yes, it’s interesting how
things can change… we have been told that some DJ’s in Buenos Aires
are now playing the music of Enrique Rodriguez whereas before, the
milongueros would never dance to his music… is this correct ?
YM:That is a very good example.
But there are only some places that would do so, and here in Europe we do
dance to Rodriguez. In a very traditional milonga like Almagro (now closed
– Ed) or Canning, which you know quite well, they would never play
Canaro, Rodriguez or lots of other music that were not in the favour of
the middle class in the forties, because it was they who made the whole
kingdom of how to play music and the definition of tandas and all of this.
How this evolved was because of the lyrics… some lyrics were not
acceptable to the middle classes -
or because of the biography and life of the person… very diverse
attendance… you could have very rich people liking certain orchestras,
and there were orchestra who played only for the barrios, and so on, and
others that only made recordings. We
gather all this music together now without knowing the social history and
background of how they were used. But
in Almagro and Canning no Rodriguez or Guardia Vieja, the music to
Canyengue ever were played. You know the middle class didn’t want to
have anything to do with Orillero or Canyengue… there are just the
favourite orchestras of the forties middle class;
and now they are having young, new DJ’s in Buenos Aires too and
they have requests – they are very talented DJ’s – they play really
good music, but they bring a fresh wind into it, and they are playing in
these traditional locations but adapting to the diverse publics. This
direction has been opened to my opinion – after the opening of
Paracultural in its old break down building – when the young people
opened the Tuesday night in Almagro in something like 1996 or 1997.
PL:I’m glad that it’s
changing because Rodriguez is really good to dance to and it seems that it
was lost for a long time.
YM:Absolutely. You share the
same taste as my partner Eduardo Aguirre. He started getting fixed on
Rodriguez when he came to Europe… it is like a discovery, and that is
very special. We are witnessing a transformation. It’s a very special
time.
PL:We are lucky enough to get
some CDs from the collectionista in Japan, Baba-san, and we receive a CD
of an orchestra we have not heard of and suddenly there is all this
wonderful music, really danceable music.
YM:I heared about this person
in Japan, he is the one with the best tango collection… and there might
be people like Zotto and others who have real nice recordings and the
milongueros that are collectors, but he has this huge, almost complete
collection with the masters.
PL:I don’t know if you saw
his interview in El Once, but you can see from the photos that his flat
has wall-to-wall boxes of records, and on the floor too… it is
amazing… but he is such a nice, gentle man too.
He told us that he still has thousands of records stored in
Argentina waiting to be brought to Japan.
YM:I know this person is very,
very special as I talk a lot about music now with some of the collectors
in the United States because I meet them through the other music I bring ,
but he is quite special to be doing such a job.
PL:Returning to the dance
aspect of tango, do you find there is a great difference in the feeling of
dancing with a young generation of dancer in Buenos Aires as against an
older generation… can you describe the difference?
YM: Sure there is, you can
clearly feel that somebody has been dancing a long while, and especially
if you speak about a difference in years of thirty or forty years. Dancing
with young dancers in general I might sometimes prefer European
dancers, but I have to admit young dancers in Argentina have a very nice
sensuality in their body, which is just… cosy and nice. Though it’s
not necessarily the huge amount of young dancers that you find in a
milonga. In a “young” milonga the mayority doesn’t dance so much
better then my friends in Nijmegen, where you really get some nice level
of European dancers gathering together. But sure, there is no-one in
Europe that come very close to my favourite milongueros out there in
Buenos Aires. This not only has to do with how they lead, what makes a
world of difference is how they feel the music.
PL:Is that because of their
interpretation of the music?
YM:Entirely … there is no
dancer that will interpret the music like a milonguero, who sufferd the
music at least several hundred times, he lived through the poem, that is
feeling so deeply the musicality… a milonguero is something you have to
“be” first … become through your childhood listening a lot, being
devote to something bigger then you or your dance;
it is not impossible, I am convinced that we will be kind of new
milongueros soon (some more 25-30 years only!) when we are ready for the
music, maybe without understanding the lyrics but sure with the attitude
of serving the music first. For the time being my favourite dancers are
still in this generation of the old milongueros. Alas they are less
visible then before. Last year I went to Buenos Aires twice and in a 7
months time many of them had vanished as they cannot afford the
“collectivo” (city bus) anymore. But there are a lot of fun dancers in
the young generation of European or American dancers that I have a really
great time with, that have a lot of musicality to be developed.
It is more fun, it is not having the same intimacy as you have with
an older Argentinian guy… you can have it with younger Argentinians too,
it can be very intimate… in a nice way, but then you miss out in
the musical part and the experience in their body.
PL:This seems to support the
tango clichés: “You dance who you are” …. “You dance your own
Tango”…
YM:Well, as you would see in
the early nineties in Almagro… you would see all individualized,
personalized styles. All this under the general description “Tango de
Salón”. This must have been a spectacle in what the milongueros call
“El Viejo Almagro”, the one with the tiles before the renovation in
1987 or so. It were the crème de la crème, but each of them were a
topper. This derived from their way of learning through looking and output
in their own body language without any lessons ever. There were masses
dancing like Pocho, Eduardo Arquimbau, Pepito or Téte now. Immagine,
there were hundreds of them. All stars. No one like the other. It is so
fascinating, their way of interpreting the music does not have anything to
do with their style but individuality all within the definition of music
first.
PL:Given that the feeling
inside a person is so important, or perhaps it’s a question of outward
style, but can you tell someone’s nationality by the way they dance ?
YM:To a certain extent only
when they start, but you can tell more about the life they lived as their
nationality. Because people are travelling a lot and they’re meeting in
international festivals and so on, so tango people are cross-fertilising
these days.…
PL:Merging with each other…
YM:Yes… I see that happening
in the United States. Before, you could say that they come from
this school or that school, but that is in the past… maybe in a few
places it is still like that, but it’s quite changing that you can see
their city or teachers revealed as they are travelling a lot, tango
dancers are like nomads; but what you can see is a personal story they are
telling of course because everybody has a different way of walking, and
that might be a road to lead to personify your tango, your individual
style… hopefully you don’t see their teacher revealed… I try to
unteach people copying nearly all my partners, so I hope they will never
make fun of it…
PL:It is a compliment in a way,
though… Regretfully, time
has run out on us for this fascinating interview, but before we stop,
perhaps you could tell us if, on your travels throughout the tango world,
you have found a place that might tempt you to remain there permanently..
perhaps a place with mountains… or a beautiful beach….?
YM:For good… no, but for
quite some time… yes… I feel like it, especially in the case of Italy,
but Italy is not the first amongst the countries Tango-wise, there are
some nice cities, but sure I
would love to stay somewhere around to… I would love to stay in
California, I love many other cities I have come across… but I am quite
related to Amsterdam and with already a Summer base in Italy, I am quite
OK.
PL:So you have two nice places
to choose from…
YM:Yes… that is OK… but if
I would have more places and no home anymore, I would be totally lost with
all the travelling going on, so I need to feel home… and still I am
always very happy when I can come back to Amsterdam.
PL:Well, perhaps you’ll come
back to London sometime…?
YM:Yes I will…. in
September…
Yvonne Meissner and Eduardo Aguirre